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Hello and welcome to Coloring Outside the Memos. This is Dr. Lizzie here with. Dr. Tiffany. And we are so excited to have a guest speaker today, Dr. Sheri Ernest Watkins. Dr. Tiffany, can you give the bio? Sure, no problem. And again, I'm so excited that Dr. Sheri Watkins is here with us today. So Dr. Sheri Ernest Watkins is a senior research fellow for the Center for Teaching Research and Learning. here at American University. Woo woo. And a faculty affiliate in the School of Education in Washington, D.C. As I said before at American University, Dr. Watkins' research focuses on increasing the science and engineering, so S&E, career attainment for undergraduate and graduate students, such as black men who have been historically underrepresented and marginalized in S&E through scholarship. and focuses on equity, inclusion, and anti-racism. Can we just drop a mic right here? That's right. Yes, we can. Seriously, how amazing is this bio already? We're so excited. She has delivered, I kind of want to be like delivered. She has delivered numerous presentations, invited talks and workshops. for universities, professional organizations, museums, and conferences. I did not know that he had done stuff with museums. Hold on. Her research collaborations have been funded by organizations including the National Science Foundation and the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. That was, isn't Howard Hughes like at the very end of like reading rainbow or something? It's founded by Howard Hughes. At least that was my memory. Okay. Take a book. It's another book. I'm reading rainbow. We're not funded by anyone. We are not funded by LeVar Burton and Company, no. She has also published in several peer-reviewed journals, including the Journal of Negro Education, Cell, Cultural Studies in Science Education, and the Urban Review, and currently serves on the editorial board for the Journal of African American Males in Education. Dr. Watkins received her PhD in science education from the University of Delaware. an MBA from the University of Detroit Mercy, a BS and an MS, excuse me, degrees in chemistry from Clark Atlanta University. Without further ado, can we please welcome the one and only Dr. Sherri Ernest Watkins. Yay, thank you. I want to meet this person. Thank you both, really. Lizzie and Tiffany, thank you so much for just honoring me with, you know, asking me to be here just in community with you. I really do appreciate it, and I'm honored. Thank you so much. I hope I can live up to that bio. Oh, you have, you have, don't worry. Don't worry, we're so excited. So our first question for you is, what was your first experience with qualitative research? Yeah. Because sharing is caring. And by the way, y'all, grab your backpacks. Dr. Lizzie, do you have your backpack? Oh, I've got it. You know I've got it. I am ready for this adventure. Every episode, every episode, we talk about we got our backpacks on. So we've got our backpacks. What does that mean? We're going on a journey. Oh, okay. That's what I thought, but I'm like, I didn't want to assume, you know, assuming this. Okay. So first experience of qualitative research. So I'm a formally trained scientist. And so I didn't have the opportunity in my undergrad or when I was pursuing my master's to think about qualitative research, being a chemistry major. So when I went to my doctoral program in science education, I just naturally gravitated more towards the questions that were asked using qualitative methods. Right? And so, you know. I am a math, a minor. I have a minor in math, right? So being a chemistry major. So I can do calculus. I can do lots of different, you know, I have a solid mathematical foundation. So I could do qualitative research, right? But I mean, quantitative, but you know, I just, I have an affinity for qualitative because I like the questions that we're being asked. I always. So I'll tell you real quick, I just always set in, I remember sitting in doctoral seminars and folks talking about people that were on the margins and they would always talk about black students in STEM. And as a science major and I'm married to a husband, my husband is a doctoral scientist as well. And I'm like, what, who are they talking about. And so I probably know tons of scientists right more scientists than anything else and they happen to be black and so. when folks were saying, no, black men, they, you know, are on the bottom of the totem pole. Like, that can't be true. So I went to refute it, right? I looked at the literature and I'm like, oh my goodness, a lot of, there wasn't a lot of literature to begin with on black men in STEM. And so, you know, that's kind of how I got into my line of research, looking at doctoral scientists and specifically focusing on black men. So I just like the questions that. or answered using qualitative methods. Cool. Uh, so thank you so much for that answer. Uh, what, tell us a little bit more about what excites you about it. It sounds like there's a lot that interests you. Um, but what makes you really excited to wake up and do a qualitative, um, project or to work on your qualitative work? Yeah, I appreciate that. So I think, um, I. So one thing is I really like a good story, I think. Many of my friends, folks that I associate with, I appreciate being in dialogue with them and I can just appreciate a good story, right? And so a lot of times with qualitative research, particularly like thinking about black people and their experiences in science, you learn so much, right? And so I get excited to learn you know, from folks, things that I haven't, you know, that I've never heard of. And a lot of times when you, many of the people that I talk to, I've been honored to have relationships with folks who are, have been, and I'm in my forties, have been doing this work way before I was born and who were twice my age, right? And a lot of the things that they share with me aren't necessarily written down. And so just to be able to engage in dialogue with them that, again, it's that oral knowledge that's passed on to you. And I really appreciate that. So learning from the more knowledgeable other, as Vygotsky would say. And so it's just exciting to be able to have a conversation, but also to find out things that you know that your research agenda but also it's always personally helped me too right and so. I think qualitative research really just resonates kind of with my soul. It does. Yes. I mean, Southern, I kind of want to say Southerner to Southerner. Yeah. You know, I feel like there's this. It's about, like you mentioned before, storytelling. And I know Dr. Lizzie and I have talked about this on the show, but it is about storytelling. It's about listening to the stories and the authenticity of those stories. It's just a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. And moving past them, right? So you learn about the stories too, but then you think about how can they inform what you're doing? And one of the things that I have learned You know, for me, as you mentioned a story, you know, like being a Southerner, so we have all these euphemisms, right? And I always think about, you know, to whom much is given, much is required, right? And so I feel like I try to enact that, like my parents put a lot into me. And so I think about folks and ancestors that I've never met before, but all the work that folks did, you know, to make sure, you know, that really helped me to be here. Right? And so... listening to these stories, I feel like, you know, it is my responsibility, you know, to try to extend their legacies by doing work that benefits folks, you know, that, you know, that look like myself or folks that are, you know, just kind of like on the margin. So yeah, I mean, it's that right and the qualitative research, it allows you. You know, it fulfills so many things, you know, for me personally and professionally. But again, I think it's all about using methods that best help you to answer the questions, you know, that are going to help, you know, vulnerable communities. Right. Yeah. I mean, now I forgot to ask you, can we call you Dr. Sherry? You can call me, you can call me Sherry. Dr. Sherry. Listen, you know, we don't call you Dr. Sherry. So Dr. Sherry. How. do you explain? I feel like we getting ready to go, we going into the sermon here. How do you explain to other scientists who use quantitative methodology as their choice of methods, what you're doing in the qualitative field? And what do you say to those who assume that you're abandoning the field? Yeah, because I mean, because some people would be like, she just up and left us, she got all her education from us. And she upped and left us. Dr. Sherry, she done abandoned us. What do you say? I think to them, so one thing is that I think we have to talk about socialization, right? So we're thinking about being a social scientist and a natural scientist, natural scientist encompassing, being a chemistry major that oftentimes we're socialized differently, right? And so. I know from my own personal experiences when I was a chemist, we didn't talk about, reflect about our practices or pedagogy. You know, not saying that those things might not be important, but they weren't salient in our topics, right? And so as a social scientist, one thing that I really appreciate is that, you know, we think about our practices, our identities and how that... contributes to our role as teachers or a scientist, right? And the nice thing is that, I think one thing is that I've appreciated is that being a chemist, I'm so appreciative of that, has helped me, I think, to be a better social scientist. And so, we think about this research methods. I think one thing that I will say is that there is room for all of us, right? So when I think about Black folks and their experiences and in science and engineering, or if you think about any area where populations are understudied or under research, the one thing about that is that there's, because it's understudied or under research, that there's room for, there are contributions to be made. What are you thinking about it from a lens of using both, qualitative and quantitative, or just, qualitative or quantitative, you know, so I think that, you know, there's room for both, right? And so for me, I appreciate both, you know, methodologies, right, and so it's not about abandoning it, but it's about really always thinking about the populations that you're exploring and wanting to not exploit those populations, but also, you know, to make the experiences of those people better. And so for me, I have just found in my current state that the use of qualitative methods, you know, helps to do that. And so if someone were to ask me that question, you know, that's exactly the response that I would tell them. Right. Oh, I love that. Thinking about who you're studying in the populations and how to ask the right questions. That is exactly it. It's not about who's right or wrong or what method is better or worse. But it's about finding the right question for the right or the right way to study for the right question. I love that. All right. In the book International Handbook of Research on Multicultural Science Education, you and Felicia Moore Mensah wrote the chapter Black Men in the U.S. Undergraduate and Graduate Science Programs and Their Persistence, Insights for Multicultural Science Educators. Can you share the conclusions you came to through the systematic review of literature? Oh yes, so you know love, I really love that project because, you know, looking at the literature, we look, so we looked at the literature around Black men and their persistence in science and engineering. Again, looking at it, I mean, thinking about Black men, they're an understudied population in the science education literature, and so really trying to see what the current landscape of the literature was like. So we themed that, and we came up with three themes. relating to pre-college experiences, relationships, and I think the role of science and engineering departments. And so, and we nuanced that a bit, but the recommendations that we came up with were so, one, you know, oftentimes people try to come up with recommendations or come up with programs, and we don't even know what's being done, right? And so doing a current, understanding what the literature looked like on the current landscape really helped us to see what was being done, what was being done well, you know, in areas where we needed growth. And so our recommendations are centered around there and the recommendations really have to do with helping us. And I think of myself as a science educator, right? Helping us to think about what our role is as science educators and in creating spaces in post-secondary. spaces like so in undergraduate programs or masters of our graduate programs that are supportive of Black men. And so we have recommendations where we pose questions to faculty, right, to help to guide them in their thinking. And one of them is, has to do with, I'll just share one of them. One of them has to do with, you know, how do we in professional development create or design sessions that center the experiences of Black men, right, and how do we include racial and ethnically engendered sensitivity work. And so I will say this, and I'm not sure this answers the question, that I think it's important for us to understand whatever methods you choose for us to understand. you know, our current discipline in the literature that's going on. And then, you know, always to, you know, to try to offer recommendations that lead towards some action, some action. Right. And so and so that's what we try to do. Offer recommendations that folks could consider independent of where they are on the spectrum. So so let's say that you are, you know, maybe you're. a novice science educator or you're a more experienced one, you know, tips to guide, to guide you in thinking about how to best support students. And so I'm going to stop there. I went on a tangent. No, you're good. I loved it. I was sitting and reflecting on my own courses because I teach public health. Right. And I. was thinking through the demographics of my students the last few semesters and I have about 400 a semester and I was like, oh yeah, there are only about five Black men in each like throughout all of my each semester, right? 400. Maybe a little bit more than that, but well, especially in the intro class, I can't tell you exactly how many were in there. There were definitely more, but I like in the upper level classes, especially, so that's probably 100 of the 400, right, each semester. So I was thinking, and one of the things that like really gets under my skin is one of the few times like things we talk about specifically towards Black men is Tuskegee. And we talk about the Tuskegee syphilis trials, right. And the way we talk about that is so problematic. But it's one of the few things we really focus on in public health, right. That's really hyper focused on Black men. We talk about Black women and maternal and child health. We talk about. Black women for a lot of other spaces and I do like public health heroes every weekend. So I have Dr. Kamara Jones and Lisa Bullock and you know like all of these other people that I highlight and lift up and say like look at these heroes. But I was thinking to myself as you were talking like, oh what else do I need to be doing and going oh my gosh maybe I'm not centering Black men as much as I should and how do I bring Black men into my classes? And so you've spurred this whole way of what else should we be doing besides talking about Tuskegee? Or is that still like, if we are, if that is the one time we're really focusing on that in the curriculum, how can we do it better? Yeah, that's a good one. You know, I think that, and Tiffany and I, we talk about this, but I think in order to do this work, that it helps to be in community, you know, with other folks, right? So I know that whenever I have, so it makes me think about the work that I do with the Smithsonian, the National Museum of African American History and Culture, but sometimes I work with teachers who are in my colleague who is a biologist at the Smithsonian and we will do workshops for teachers that are in K through eight mostly and helping them to think about ways that they can. center Black scientists in their curriculum, right? Independent of it, if it's science or not. And so, you know, I think about one thing that you could, you know, so it's always helpful to be in community with other folks, right? Because in doing that, we have an opportunity to learn, you know, from each other. So oftentimes, you know, for us, we interrogate our, one thing that we did is in K through, in elementary school, sometimes we don't have a, they don't have a syllabus that they have like a classroom kind of policies document, right? And so one of the things we did is we really, we talked about a framework and we interrogated the classroom policies using a framework. So maybe it might've been culturally responsive, right? And so one of the things that we saw is that, some of the classroom policies were very penal, right? They were very zero tolerance type like type of language. And they just weren't really supporting students. And so, I think that, so being in community sometimes and having these conversations where we are, centering our work around equity and inclusion and anti-racism helps us, right? And, you know, just looking at the ways in which we support all of our students and the ways in which we don't, but doing that on an ongoing basis. Right. So, you know, one thing is that just understanding that this work of supporting and creating environments for all of our students is ongoing and, you know, making sure that we have the supports to do that. And that can be informal or, you know, formal, right. I found that some of my best, you know, so a lot of good ideas come from like the hallway when we were in person, our bathroom conversations that I had with folks, right? I'm like, oh, you know, it'll kind of push me in thinking about something. So I would say to continue to be in community, you know, with folks and to consent to. to continue to be intentional about it. Cause I always think if you wanna do something, like for me, when I wanna lose weight, I'm like, oh, I wanna lose weight, but then I'll eat like some candy or a piece of cake. Well, that's not really helping. So like, I have to be intentional about our commitments. And having spaces like this, like how we're doing, just kind of dialoguing and making sense of ideas, I think helps us. So out of all that, I also heard that you worked at the African-American Museum for the record. So we'll have to talk about that offline. By the way, this podcast is not sponsored by the African-American Museum. Just wanted to let everybody know that. And no, Dr. Sheri cannot get you tickets. I just wanna put that disclaimer out there. But the really cool part that the one thing that I love about working with you, you know, at the center is you also work with an amazing another amazing human besides myself. But no, seriously, his Brian McGowan, Dr. Brian McGowan. You I can say to Dr. Lizzie, it's also an alum from IU. You wrote Go Hoosiers. You and Brian and Drs. Jones and Boyce wrote this article, Black faculty facilitating difficult dialogues in the college classroom, the cross disciplinary response to racism and racial violence. I just need to repeat that title one more time. I need people to let that sink in. I need it to sink in. I need folks to marinate. Yeah. Black faculty facilitating difficult dialogues in the college classroom, a cross disciplinary response to racism and racial violence. Now. interviewing, doing interviews like this, what is the difference between doing interviews with people that you know and people you just don't know? And then you've got this difficult top. I mean, it's not, some people may say it's not difficult to us, us being black and brown folks, but when we're talking about racism, racism takes all shapes, sizes and forms. So it's a difficult conversation to have, like for real, for real. So... How do you address it? And what is the difference in doing, in participating in doing these interviews as the researcher? I love that question really. I think I'm so glad that you lifted that up seriously in this space. I mean, because like, so as a qualitative researcher, I always feel like it's very important to, to be able to establish a rapport with the participants. And most often when I'm interviewing folks, I don't know them. One thing that people don't understand is that, yes, most people, if they agree to participate in the interview and not like people who are professionals, they are participating in it because they probably care deeply about the issue. They're vested in the issue in some way. But you have to establish a rapport. And so from my experience, and I'll talk about that, even though I am a Black person, a person that identifies as a Black woman, even when I identify other folks of the same, that have the same racial background, race and racism are, depending on who you're talking to, are topics that are not. people are not socialized to talk about them. So I can just say for me, in my experience, being a scientist and interviewing other scientists, oftentimes folks are not socialized to talk about this. And so while I may want to understand their racialized experiences in science and engineering environments, just because we have some similarities in terms of race, it doesn't mean that it's always something that people are... forthright in talking about. And part of it, I think, is because depending, and it depends on your age too, right? We're not always socialized to do stuff. So when you think about, you know, conducting these interviews, it takes some skill, right? I think you have to think about, you know, the ways that you frame these questions. You also have to think about that why you're interviewing these, you know, folks, they're also interviewing you. Right? And so it's your energy, it's your presence. It's all of that, that I think goes into you having, you know, you being able to capture what it is you want to capture. And then, you know, also getting those jewels and those nuggets, right? Again, that's why I say I happen to be extrovert. And so I think that it's, you know, that it helps, right? It helps me with, with doing these interviews. And so I think that you know, that you have to be skilled in it, right? So thinking about, I always say, you know, what are you giving folks to, right? Thinking about your energy and how you're framing these questions. So, yes. And oftentimes, you know, whether you know a person or not, you know, I think I go into, you know, researcher mode. And so, Can I ask a follow-up question? Yeah. I just, I just, because. Please do. You know, I think that's the part about being, one of the most challenging parts about being a, a qualitative researcher is knowing what question to ask. Because sometimes those questions are not on your interview guide. So how do you know, or how, how have you known to. say, you know what, there's something that person just said that I need to do a follow up question. Or like, what is it in you? I mean, that just, that sets off that alarm in your mind, you know? And I'm glad you said that too, you know, being a qualitative, I think researcher requires a lot, there's a lot of cognitive, you know, ability, energy that's happening there, right? I mean, because you are asking questions, but they're semi-structured, right? Oftentimes for me, they're semi-structured. So sometimes in that moment, you've got to be able to change them on the fly, depending on the response that the person gives you, right? It is, you just can't, so you might have your list of questions in your interview protocol, but you've got to be listening to what that person is saying and you can't interrupt them because sometimes you interrupt them and they go down a different line. But then you've also got to take notes, to be like, okay, mental note, ask them about this. So I think there's a lot that's going on, that's happening that we don't always think about, that goes into you capturing what you wanna capture. And so for me, I think it comes from experience, right? It comes from experience, understanding that, I mean, interviews, for me, I think even when I'm teaching, I like for it to be an exchange of dialogue and ideas between myself and my students and even whatever. I take that approach to doing workshops and interviews are the same. I mostly try to listen. Because even though it's a dialogue, there's an intent and purpose around this, right? So most of my job is to listen and to try to follow up if there are things that are not answered. But for me, that's what I think as a qualitative researcher, we have to act, we have to really listen to every word, right? Because if we don't, and we ask the question, the person's kind of thinking about, well, they already asked that, right? And so, and then thinking about the time, for me, I like to be respectful of, if I say it's an hour, it's an hour, you know? And I try not to usually go past 70 minutes, right? Because it's... It's a lot of labor for both parties involved, right? Woo, Lord. You feel a little cold out there, Dr. Tiffany? Yeah. Do you feel a little cold out? I did get a little, I did, I did, I did. Anything? Yeah. You know what? Again, like, you know, like not calling anyone out, but just for my own, right? Like listening to a person for... So, I think for me, I try to be present in these interviews, but that requires a lot when you listen to a person talk for an hour in every word, right? Because you never know when a person is gonna say that, Julia, oh my goodness, I hadn't even thought about that, right? But if you're not present, and listening to what they're saying and processing it, and you might miss it, right? And so for me, that's just the process that works for me. Yeah, absolutely. 100%. I want to go back to a little bit earlier in the conversation you were talking about how we're not all socialized to have conversations about racism. And I think particularly white people aren't. And for me, that pulled up Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria by Dr. Beverly Tatum, who like that book I've talked about a lot on this podcast already. It is one of my favorites. Um, and I teach about that all the time, cause I think she's so insightful in how she frames things. And so anyway, I just wanted to note like that was pulling up for me as you were talking about that socialism. I don't know if that's where you were pulling from, but that's what I heard. Which also connected me then to thinking about Dr. Cacchia Bhattacharya, who we've talked about a lot on this podcast and how qualitative work is all about constructivism and how people construct their worlds. And I think for a lot of our listeners, some of who are new to qualitative research and some who have been doing it for a long time, we've been having this conversation about what is so special about qualitative work. And I think that's exactly it, of like listening to that every word and figuring out how people construct their worlds and what that tells us about the world as a whole. And so I guess my question for you is like, When you're thinking about how you frame qualitative research, what are like those some of the underpinnings or are there some other people that feel like really important thinkers that shape how you think about it? Yeah, I think for me. Um, so it's about, you know, thinking about, again, your positionality, right? So research your positionality. And it's something that like when I'm writing Most of the manuscripts, I do have a section in there in the methods about the research or positionality. I think it's important because it really talks about how you come to the work. So in that part, I talk about how I come to the work, talking about the fact that I identify as a formally trained scientist who is also a social scientist who is, was in a, federally funded program to increase the number of black students pursuing PhDs who grew up in a place, Atlanta, Georgia, where that was really like a counter space, you know, for me, you know, on a just a city level, you know, and then who went to an HBCU and who went to the University of Delaware. So what I'm saying is how I come to the work is like many of us, I think, a combination of all of our experiences and really just tapping into that, right? And I think it's important, right? Because it helps us to think how we come to the work and making the connection between like the fact that it influences us as researchers, as teachers, you know, as scholars. For me, you know, When I'm teaching, I consider my students to be, they're like my, they are my children. I care about them, right? And so I care about them, not just, their academic success, but their emotional success too. So I think that, so when I'm thinking about this, I think one thing that's important is, just to really consider that our positionality, our professional and our personal and our multiple identities really do impact how we come to the work, how we think about the work, the theories that we use, you know, the methods that undergird us, right. And so, um, yeah, I would say that I always take that with me. So I know this is not what you mean by the work. But what comes to mind is, I know that Tiffany's thing. Work, work, work. Or Tiffany's thing like, you know, when I talk about work, for me, I'm always thinking about how to create supportive environments, you know, for students that are, you know, for students that are on the margins like black students in STEM. You know, that guides me, right? Because I feel like, as a scientist, you know, because there's so many disparities, you know, in science that we could be exemplars for what it looks like to be equitable, you know, in science disciplines, but that it can be used, you know, in other disciplines as well, right? We can be used as a model for that. So that's Tiffany's favorite word, the word, you know? It's like, tell me about this work. I mean, let it be a Rihanna and Drake version of it. work. I mean, maybe it's Britney Spears. I mean, I don't like them all. So I go back to Fifth Harmony work. I don't know. Like just saying. I mean, I'm glad you provided that opportunity, you know, to further flesh that out. So, so folks who don't know anytime Sherri and I are in a meeting and somebody says the work and I'm like, so define the work. So tell me more about the work. How are you defining the work, like a true qualitative researcher, I guess, you know? Tiffany goes. I'm like, boom. The very, very focused, very, very hyper focused on this one word. So we are going to do this quick little game that we like to do with our guests. Okay, so we've got some questions for you. Okay, let's go. I can't wait to do a speed round, Dr. Nugent. Yeah. I think we should. And listeners, we're gonna post these on social media and have you be able to comment on them with your perspectives too. So it'll be a fun little engagement. Definitely, definitely, definitely. All right, Dr. Sherry, you ready? Ready. Engine started, engine started? Ready, ready, let's go. Okay, all right. So what areas of qualitative research have you wanted to explore but have not had the opportunity to do yet? Yes, intersectionality. Let's go. Let's go with it. Ooh. Oh. Ooh, we like that one. It's getting hot in here. Intersectionality. So do all the research. And site camera. Take off all the layers. That's funny. You know, we're rappers and we're artists. We're hip hop artists. I can see. Our records are not sold anywhere. Um, question number two, what is your favorite tool to use or bring with you into the field as a qualitative researcher? My, me, me. Yes, I mean, I love to hear, I am always appreciative and honored when folks want to talk to me and share their stories with me, and so just listening to those stories and just being able to think about them using different frameworks. but the fact that folks share them with me is always like, I'm always so honored by that really. What was your favorite childhood STEM experiment? Okay, so I'm gonna say this. There wasn't one favorite STEM experiment, but I will tell you this, both of my parents always had me doing something, right? So even during the summertime, my father, you know, he would be home with us, right? And he would have these workbooks. We had to do our workbook, math workbook, reading workbook, literature workbook. And then guess what? You went outside and you stayed outside all day long, right? So it went from that to being like in a summer camp at the zoo to being like, you know, in a writing camp to like doing a camp like at Xavier and then at Howard. And so I think it was just... my parents giving me all these experiences, summer experiences that really helps me to cultivate a love for science, but also to decide like that this is the air, having experienced things that I didn't like, that this is what I did like, right? So it wasn't one thing, but it was just having multiple opportunities to engage. in different experiences, right? So I can figure out what I didn't like because I hated typing, right? I hated typing, but you got to the, I got to the point of experiences that I did like, so. Yes. Dr. Tiffany and I were both children of teachers, so we were not really heavily at that workbooks in the summer thing. Like charts for your reading progress in the summer. Oh, yes. Um, and as you're talking about the zoo, I'm like, Ooh, I bet you did owl pellets too. Like I did when I went to my summer camps at the park. My mom was very sneaky. Cause I was like, Oh, she'll forget that the answer key is in the back. Right. Yeah. Used to put the answer key in the back. And I was like, Oh, look, she won't know the difference. Right. No. When I would go visit my grandmother, guess what? The workbooks were in my backpack. And she took the answer key out. She took the answer key out. And then she would go get the books for the next academic school year, for the incoming academic school year. So yeah. That helps, right? Look, and look at what happened. On occasion, folks call you both doctor. So yay, period. Yay. Yes. Dr. Lizzie, I think you've got the next question. I do. Who in the STEM field or the qualitative research field will let you pick your choice? Would you want to have tea or coffee with and what would you want to talk about? Not fair. You know, so, okay, there's, oh, there's so many folks. So I'm going to, you know, I'm going to. maybe cheat a little bit. And I'm gonna say, you know, there was, I've been reading this book, The Black Apollo of Science, right? And it talks about Ernest Everett Just. And so he was a professor at Howard and he actually taught my great, great aunt, right? Who was a student at Howard in the 1920s. And so. Just reading, I'm only halfway through the book because the book has about 500 pages, but it's really fascinating, right? It starts with talking about his upbringing, his family, his mother, and just reading this really helps me, it provides context around him, right? Again, it's that storytelling that I like. So, or that resonates well with me. So I think I'd like to have a conversation with him, you know, and ask him. um you know questions around um because many of the things that we are dealing with in terms of you know black people and being represented in science or you know are things that he was dealing with over 100 years ago so I think I'd like to have um a sit down with him I don't know if it would be scholarly or not right but um you know because this is where I am in this space I think it would be him, but there, you know, but it's, that's not a fair question. I think it's a fair question. It's a hard, you know, so. I don't even know who I would. I'd go with Ernest Everett just at this point, right? Dr. Lizzie, do you know who you would want to have to you with? Don't do it. He is deceased, right? Well, you know what Sherry, I mean, is he, is he buried out here? You know, I actually don't know because he moved overseas. You guys, I don't know where, you know, Sherry, I think that, you know, once you get to the end of the book, I think that, that we should take this podcast wherever, uh, you know, he's buried wherever he's buried in co-apt. I'm just saying we can do it. I know, right? I had a drink on Kinsey's grave. So yeah, that's funny. Because that's a hard question though. It really because there's so many people. You know, so folks think about this. Yes, too hard to people. People think about this. Think about this. You know, who would you want to have tea or coffee with? Because I don't, I don't even know. I don't even know. All right. Dr. Sherry, the last question of the afternoon for us. Here it is. What is your anthem that makes your that makes writing easier? What's your anthem? You know what? I won't say that. It's just specifically to writing. And maybe you've heard me say this, but when it's so this comes from. When I was matriculating at my undergraduate institution, Clark Atlanta University, and I'm always telling everyone this, my kids, anybody, find a way or make one. That's what, that was the anthem at CAU, find a way or make one. And let me tell you, I tried to, I internalize that, right? So whether it's writing, cleaning, whatever you wanna do, I think it's applicable. Find a way or make one, right? So, yeah. Wow. Dr. Sherry found a way and made her own. That's all I'm gonna say. Yes, find a way or make one. Find a way or make one. Dr. Sherry, thank you so much. Thank you both for just, you know, I really enjoyed this. I hope that it was helpful. This really, you know, this series is important. in helping people, you know, so many people are not trained or don't have opportunities to think about qualitative research and the value of it in terms of teaching research or service. So I hope that this can be, you know, helpful for that. I think it's so important in what you're doing and capturing different folks' perspectives, you know, scientists, social scientists. So thank you for this opportunity to contribute to that. You're welcome. And where can folks find you if they want to read your work, if they want to follow you? You can find me at sherryatamerican.edu about that, and I will respond to you. Yes. Yeah. Now we're smooth. I'm going to look you up. Oh, wait. Your cubicle is next to mine. Right. Oh. Thank you so much, Dr. Sherry. Thank you. Without further ado, I'm Dr. Tiffany. And I'm Dr. Lizzie. Thank you so much, everybody, for tuning in for today. Have a good one. Thank you. Bye.