Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and welcome everybody to another episode of coloring outside the memos I am Dr tiffany. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: She her. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And i'm Dr lizzie she her. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And we are so excited to have you join us, today we are talking about. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Something amazing and find Dr lizzie tell us what we're talking about today. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): We are talking about working working with and not on Community is, this is a really important distinction to all too often we. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): are doing research, and we know some Community has experienced some kind of disparate outcome, whether it be. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Health related or access related or some other thing and we say this is the population, we want to focus on, and we are not of that community, and so we start to do this research, because we want to help. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Often, from the very best of intentions and. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yet we are by the very nature of doing this work with this community that we are not a part of we therefore often are doing work on communities and not with communities. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): One of the most obvious and famous examples of this, of course, is the tuskegee syphilis trials which happened in Alabama and tuskegee Alabama in which white researchers worked. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): On community is to study the pathways of syphilis in black men and. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): there's a lot written about that a lot talked about that this episode is not about that specific. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): study, although I could tell you a lot about it but we're not here for that right now. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Instead, what we want to talk about is not doing work like that that is so problematic and I, we could probably just banter the entire time about cases of off other awful things, because that is not the beginning middle and end of bad research ethics. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): However, what we want to do is instead of focusing on all of those negative stories instead focus on what else you can do so, how can you make sure your work is not that, how can you therefore work with and not on communities. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): All of that said. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): As we get started, Dr tiffany let me ask you um what comes to the top of your mind when you think about this topic, what are some examples that come to you. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I mean, I think what comes to me and as you're talking i'm like yes, I mean. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Terrible you know we don't it's again reminder that we're not here to talk about i'm glad you said that we're not here to talk about the. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: tuskegee experiment, you know, by any means whatsoever. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: But when I do when I do think about working with and not on communities, I do think about that negative impact that it that by by not going in to a community and actually having a frank conversation, the importance of conversation with people. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Knowing where you stand with communities, I think that's so so important, I mean, especially if you're an outsider and you want to quote unquote fix. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Your research is not meant to fix people, and I think we have a lot of people who do research anything oh i'm going to go in and fix people i'm like, no, no, or i'm going to go in and i'm going to educate people do you think you are about to feel like i'm getting on my soapbox right now. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You are that you can go in and educate people just because you think that that my friends, is working on communities it's not working with communities, so that honestly. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: my eyes twitching that's it's so stressful stressful Dr lizzie thinking about this um when we when we work with communities it's a partnership it's a collaboration you I mean some of the terms that we talked about here. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: In the Center for teaching, research and learning is becoming thought partners. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Yes. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Right. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So your thought partners. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So that's kind of what I think about that these are the words that come to mind, for me, collaboration collaborators thought partners um. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I don't know bridge builders and. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: All the family, because in sometimes in these when you do this kind of research, you become family, because you spend so much time with people, so what words come to mind to you or for you. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I should say. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): yeah absolutely collaboration is a big wine, because of the training, I have had my mind goes immediately to CBP are which, if you're not familiar with that term it's Community based participatory research, which was. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: i'm sorry i'm sorry does everybody got their backpack. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Because because Dr Lindsay is about to take us there. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I didn't mean to interrupt you, but i'm just saying you're taking us there so everybody gets your backpack on because here we go. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I love it and before I fully go on the journey, I also have to stop and say thank you so much for that explanation, Dr tiffany and for it like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Talking us through how you feel and what words come to your brain because. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): All of that just was giving me the Shivers and y'all couldn't see me, but I was doing a lot of snaps because I had myself on mute. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and doing a lot of claps and a lot of really excitement while you were talking, because you were you were you were really embodying all of the things that I think make us so excited about this topic and it's certainly a topic we visit a lot together. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: It is thank you hey Thank you so much, I mean it and, in the words of ED shared sheeran in Shivers I mean, and when you close up give me the Shivers I mean hey I mean Thank you ED for singing that song for us but i'm just saying. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I mean you're hey you know I that's why I love doing this work with you, you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: But anyway, I will I will be quiet, so you can take us on our journey here for today. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): All right. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So get your backpacks on so Community based participatory research initially developed by greeting cruder. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): 1999 I tells us a lot about what. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): How to do work well, so they developed this model that says essentially. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): recognize this problem right and again it's not the beginning middle and end aren't the most famous cases, you have heard, whether it's the Stanford prison trial experiments or the. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): milgram experiments or tuskegee were ever feel the study you have there's a point of reference of some really, really far out there research experiments, but again most times when we're doing work. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): On and not with the way, is that this is happening is very small way is and that you might not notice, if you are not paying really close attention and so. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): listeners, I want you to be really thoughtful and instead of just nodding along and going yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): wow we're get rid of those awful researchers, take a real hard look at what populations, you have done research on or are planning to do research on and say to yourselves in what ways have I worked with this Community. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): A lot of times by the very nature of research we don't do work with we do work on because most of research pushes us to do work on and not with, and it can be really hard to figure out how to do with and so green and cruder recognize this problem and they write this book and. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): They develop an outline a model called proceed proceed, which is essentially how to do work with a not on, it is a very extensive process, most people can't do not have capacity to fully do Community based participatory research. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): When we think about it, one of my favorite quotes on this specific topic comes from Barbara Israel. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And what she writes, is that it is critical that CBP our efforts strive to understand the historical and contemporary social, economic and environmental context. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): That have a significant impact on the Community is involved in work to improve the conditions that foster these health inequities. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): In addition, as elaborated here, it is essential that the cultural context of Community is be understood and respected explicitly informing partnership approaches to research. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): When we think about and what I want you to get from Barbara is this. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): This idea is not coming in and saying hey I was a problem in your community, let me do some research to be able to tell you more about what the problem on your community is but rather going into a Community and saying. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): hey i've got the skills and tools and money, how can I work with you to help you figure out what problems are in your community and what we can do to solve them. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And when you're doing that, instead, it is fully collaborative in it works together and it works through every step of the research problem process from research question information to data collection to analysis to writing up in reporting out the research fully different than. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Any other method Now this is extremely time extensive and. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): isn't something that a lot of us can do, given the constraints of publishing quotas and grant dollars and other constraints that we are under So what we can do instead is do many steps in between and we'll talk about those in a second, but before I dive into how to solve it. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I want to pause for a quick second. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: yeah so I actually have a question for you, Dr lizzie. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: mm hmm so. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: What is the difference. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: between a community of people, people from a Community i'm from a selected group of like you're specifically going there versus a one person who is from a particular demographic that you're looking across the board, I don't know if i'm making any sense whatsoever, but is there. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: hold on Lindsay I need you to edit this out okay and i'm going to pause the recording so. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: added that. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Okay, let me pause it looks like you have a question for me. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I do, Dr lizzie so, can you define communities, because we've been talking about communities and. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: My brain is about to explode of because of excitement of us talking about CP br or CB p. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I know it's tough, I mean it's like tracing this 12 times with a retainer in your mouth. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So, can you define communities for us. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Absolutely, I would love to thank you for that question. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So communities here is a tricky thing to define because we used to say community is a neighborhood right because that used to be true, you went to your neighborhood school, you went to your neighborhood grocery store you went to your neighborhood church so on and so forth, whatever other. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Historic nonsense people talk about maybe it's true I don't know I didn't live in that period. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But we no longer to find community as a neighborhood some communities are online some communities are we come together for a specific purpose some communities are still churches or neighborhoods some communities are physical some communities. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Are virtual some communities come together for a specific thing and then separate out, regardless of how we talked about this, we can think about this is not quite groups but group ask so. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): A group might be defined as a group of people that come together or a bunch of people that come together for a specific purpose right so maybe you come together for. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Your you're I don't know a come together for swimming practice or something and that might. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Be you know what I was gonna say. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I mean, maybe because i've met you. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Or we might say, a group of LGBT Q plus folks come together now both of these might be groups, but one might. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): or both might actually define themselves as a Community, and when the group defines itself as a community it's because there are really tight connections. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): there's a period of time that the group has known each other there's something pulling them together that isn't going to be split apart very easily. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it's something that is very cohesive that they've been working together for a long period of time and they plan to be together for a long period of time, you can kind of think about it, like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): How we often think about our societal, cultural norm for family is that no matter what happens we're still going to be family. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): we're still going to come together, we all know that there's problems with that because it's Okay, if you need to leave family connections, for whatever reason, you need to leave family connections. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But this is the sort of societal, cultural norm, we all live in right that this is the norm we've been indoctrinated with. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So community is kind of like that that even if something happens this community is still going to be together, for whatever reason, right and they're going to weather the storm, whatever it might be. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): OK, so now that we have this idea of Community it so for some people, a community could be their local barbershop right and that they're going into their hair salon or barbershop. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Every week, for whatever reason, and there's always the same people in there, and you feel really connected to those people. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): For other people they go to their salon once every couple months and are there barbershop once every couple months or once a month. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): They always see different people in there, they don't feel connected to it at all right there's different levels for different kinds of places for some people, the Church is going to be the. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Really focal point and that's going to be their Community Center and they feel really connected for other people they go in for worship and they leave and they don't feel connected at all right. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So you see what i'm saying it's really conditional and I can't just say. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): This is always going to be the Community hub because it's not for a lot of people for some people, maybe their discord channel is their community for other people it's like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You go in and I do my social media thing and then I jump back out and it's not my Community right so it's how folks to find Community for themselves, does that help get to your question. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: That totally helps get to my question, because. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: We were talking and my brain was just going, how are we defining Community like I guess like a true qualitative person like are redefining this, but we can't define it, because it means so much just so many different people and we've got people. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You know So yes, thank you. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I have shaped you. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): yeah sure you as well as true qualitative people were both like honing in on how people construct their own reality is right so um I don't know everyone's going to define it differently, because they construct the world differently. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I just like to say, Dr lizzie I am so glad that you're a part of my community. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): same. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Sam I don't know how. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): To my community. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I mean we could do CB PR on our ourselves and i'm just saying that we formed community. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): We could I love that idea. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And let's talk that away for a future project I know right right. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So how many people out there want to join our community that's all i'm gonna say hey. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): you're a part of our co tm Community I. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Know right, so I mean I guess. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Thinking about that i've never used. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: cvpr um. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: But i've read about other people who have but now i'm thinking. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Did they really define it in their work, so I just want to let you know i'm my mind is. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I don't know i'm just thinking i'm thinking, really, really hard about. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Other other researchers and what they have done and I feel like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: People Maybe it was Community based participatory research um. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: i'm not really sure if they may have label it as such, but I think that they would have because of the type of research, they were doing, and because of the text of the reusing and because they openly said hey i'm working with this Community i'm. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And i'm going to name a couple of people here, or at least the title their books recovering black storytelling and qualitative research and darken story work so that's one by Oliver. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Of course we have talked about Venus Evan winters several times on this podcast so. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: her book her book black feminism in qualitative inquiry mosaic for writing our daughter's body and, of course, last but not least, D colonizing ethnography undocumented immigrants in new directions and social science, so I have not gotten into that when I will get yet, but I feel like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Those three texts are more Community based and there's definitely sections in Evans winters text where she talks about. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Working with a Community as not only as a black woman, but definitely talking about it as the upliftment of black girls, so I just want to pause there. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): yeah well, thank you for sharing those examples, and I think it's so important to look at some of those and see them and. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): A lot of what. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): We do I say this. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): When. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Any new fad comes along and research. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And I use that word lightly, but also very intentionally. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): We have new things that pop up and we see these come out and everyone suddenly wants to get on board, because it's a really good idea and everyone's like yeah let me use this to what a lot of times when something new comes up like this, not every woman. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): goes in depth into the history and understands the full original idea behind it and so everyone's kind of jumping on board and publishers, want to see this editors want to see this. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): People are getting pushes from the your universities to use this so everyone starts using this word. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But it's one of those times like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Word means what you think it means i'm kind of like the Princess bride right. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And maybe that quote doesn't work for everyone, but you know what I can quote that movie backwards and sideways So here we are. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Community based participatory research is one of those words that a lot of people use but not everyone understands because, in its most pure sense it is truly finding a Community partner and saying like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): hey I want to like I have these skills beyond working with them through the development of the research question through the development of the research type through the. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Data Collection through the data analysis and through the publishing of it, most people haven't done it from that full stop and in, even if they do it through all of those steps, then usually they're like peace out. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): In the next step, of course, is like Okay, what do we do with this now that we've published it. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Do we, how do we change things are in our own community or what do we do with this research or how does this lead to the next thing or what do we. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): What do we do now that we know this and it's really hard for most academics, to be able to invest that deeply in one specific Community. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Because usually you have to publish between you know one and 10 articles, a year, and if you're on that kind of a timeline you don't you you literally cannot do cvpr in its truest sense. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: i'm glad you said that I am so glad that you said that, I mean reality it's reality so. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You kind of outlined a brisk give us a brief outline, I will say you know, maybe burst isn't the word what's the word that i'm looking for just a quick outline of. Of. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: What we would need to do to get there sort of but how do we do it successfully, how do we do see be P R I know right now y'all try saying it 20 times. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: cvpr CBP RC no kidding but you try doing you try to you try I can't even ask the question because I tried saying this word 20 times now, how do we do cvpr successfully. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Because I mean I feel like you're given me nuggets. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I want to put these more nuggets in my backpack i'm ready. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): yeah so. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I think it's. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): relationship building is what it all comes down to So if I as a white person. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And as a female presenting person go into. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): let's just say, I decided to go into a bathhouse in a black community and. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): No one's gonna listen to me no one's gonna, believe me, no one's gonna let me in that don't work and they shown it right. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I will let you in the door. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And lizzie. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): right but. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Without anybody have history. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): That because we have history, and we have trust right. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You have tried it. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You don't just go in and you say. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): y'all are having a lot of HIV I don't want to do work on you everyone's gonna be like nope sorry. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: See you later know you. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I don't know you I don't know you know what it's kind of reminds me of when I was a kid my mom would not let me. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Go hang out with just any kid you know she would say I need to meet their mama I need to meet the Daddy I need to meet their uncle on the cut she would go through the whole family. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Before I could even have a sleep over. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: At the either their house or my house or whatever, I mean it was. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You know, it was it was just a thing, it was just the thing you know, like trust is so important, I feel like that's something that is often forgotten about in in order to do this kind of work. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You know, you need you do need trust. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You absolutely do and that's exactly what it is it's relationship building and it's trust building and it's going to take time right because you don't build. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Trust overnight you don't just say like hey, this is the thing right you go into a Community and you don't you say like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): hey i'm. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): i'm just really curious about what you're doing and i'd like to see more about what what's working for you. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And you go in and you work with him and you build that relationship and sometimes it takes years, sometimes it takes decades. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You prove that you're a safe person you prove that you are trustworthy you follow through on things that you have promise. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And over time you build this relationship with them and then over time they might say hey. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): we're dealing with this thing you've got the skills, could we work together say yes, I would love to and you work with the Community and not on the Community now. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Of course that time piece is is hard but that's how you really do it, you build a relationship, and it can go faster, there was a time period where. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I did work with an LGBT Q plus youth group that came to the university because they were. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): needing a specific thing and they said hey can we work with you to figure this thing out yeah absolutely. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And that project took about two years from start to end and I knew those young people really, really well because it was truly a youth led organization, it was not. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): A youth based organization, it was a youth led organization and that the youth were. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Making the decisions on the budget, they were making the decisions on leadership, they were in everything the adult Supervisor was literally. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): When she came to things she would just sit in the background, and she wasn't even in the main circle of decision makers, she would be in the background and the young people only look to her occasionally when there was something truly that they couldn't figure out themselves and. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): that's that work was incredible so. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You know it's rare to see that kind of thing and it's rare to have that kind of experience. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But when it happens, it is it really magical because, by the time it gets done and they get to see their name on a published paper. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It is just like pure joy to have that happen right and to be able to have said, like yeah you learned all of these things, and then to be able to write a reference letter for their Grad school application that is like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): This person when they were a teenager helped out this research project like what it's beautiful like I can't even begin to describe how wonderful that is um teenagers are amazing. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Too many Poles or estimate them yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Just a full full circle right there, I mean. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Now that we know why it's awesome. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I have a question for you. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Why don't people use this method more often. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Because of time because of money. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Because it's um. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): We have the publishing guidelines that we have and we have the monetary mechanisms that we have most funders don't want to give you money for an unlimited period of time. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Most funders don't want to give you money that you're not going to spend that's going to take you five years to develop or spend right. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it's just normally not a thing that happens, even like five year grants, like the big grants that are one grants for many inch. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): want results earlier than five years right they're not gonna say like yeah here's a billion dollars for five years go have fun they want reports every six months right like so most funding mechanisms are set up specifically so that we can't do this kind of work. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yes, I did just say that i'm. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Deep that that just cut me deep you know, in a way that. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Even if somebody was interested in doing this. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: That that just brings. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: A whole nother layer of a barrier, you know I mean if you want to work with the Community and and feel invested and. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I feel like research is prohibiting you to be able to do that, or at least money. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And all these other limitations, these are huge limitations. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Now I want to go out and do cvpr oh. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it's it's truly like the best research project i've ever had because of that, like it was it was magical it really was and I don't say that word lightly right like I knew those people really deeply by the end of that project and could be really proud of that, because. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It was something that you know we'd all invested so much time and energy and but. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You know, there are ways that you can still do it within the timelines if you can have those relationships or repeat can be that Community presence. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But here's the thing y'all I understand, most of us don't have capacity don't have time don't have energy don't have resources to do this kind of work because we're tapped. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): To thing we're on too many other things it's really challenging and I am not telling you as busy academics, to add another thing to your plate, what I am telling you is that. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it's perhaps the best example of working with versus on So how can you do other versions of this, so what I think of is I think of as cvpr light I T is the easier version of this like, how can we do it a little bit easier to fit within most of the. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): structures and systems that we're all working in and have to work in because we can't control the world. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And so, how do we do this well. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): We can. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): do a lot of clear communication and listening, we can set up. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): community groups that were already invested in and say like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You know. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): This this group or this community is connected to whatever research i'm doing or whatever area i'm invested in Is there something that you all. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): would like to see happen with your community, or is there, something that there is a problem that I can use, because I have the skills that I bring to the table right. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Maybe I can't volunteer a million hours at every organization or maybe I can donate a million dollars to every organization that I care about. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But i'm in this Community I do this work, I have the skills of how to do research, how to do whatever we could I use the is to our mutual benefit and a lot of times. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Grassroots organizations or community based organizations are going to be like oh my gosh yes now, I will say i've also been on the other side of this when I back in the day is before I was Dr lizzie I was. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): lizzie who worked at planned parenthood, and we had a partnership with a local university and they were doing this research with us and. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I was shouting and every single meeting you all, I was like well that's an utter nonsense, you cannot ask my young people that question that is off limits How dare you even think of that no this is unethical and I. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): was like Why can I see this. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Every single maybe knows like no. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I definitely can see you doing this at every single meeting I mean, do you think that you were. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Reacting this way because you're also trying to protect. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Your your we're trying to protect our. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: side you know, and I I think that's the. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You know it's so interesting being a researcher when you're when you're. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You and I are practice remix. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: We are practitioners and we're also academics. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: yep so. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: When we're on the practitioner side. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Now that we have these three lovely letters after our name. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: we're on their practitioner side, we can tell other researchers yeah no room around the researcher side, we have to change our ear and say okay so tell us what your needs are and how can we help eight, in the words of. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Of Max Goodwin from the the character on new Amsterdam always says, I love that show. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: How can I help. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): um. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: How can I help. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And and anytime somebody books, a consultation with me over at CRM I always say how can I help. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And that changes. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: The dynamic. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So how can I help. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): mm hmm so i'm almost seeing this like literally taking off the glasses and putting on a different frame putting on a different lens and saying Okay, I am in a different space, right now, I have a different lens that i'm looking through, and this is how I need to move forward in the world. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I love I love love love that analogy wait I want some oprah glasses i'm just saying oprah if you're listening to the podcast I. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I would love some new frames. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: If I could get some oprah frames, I would really appreciate it, you know or Al Roker frames, one of the other, I mean i'm just saying. You know. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): glasses are expensive y'all. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): our eyes are tired. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: eyes are very, very tired. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So I mean wow I love the fact that you've talked about how we've navigated some of these problems, I mean planning, you talked about mentorship clear communication. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I mean. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): yeah yeah yeah so there's there's a lot we can do here, and the other thing that I think is really helpful and this is going to seem like a weird example but stay with me for a little bit is the EPA. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): came out after they defined the environmental justice in 2015 under the Obama Administration first time that environmental justice was coined. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): by the government. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I know anyway um they came up with a model, called the environmental justice collaborative Problem Solving model. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And this is a nine step model and it walks you through how to work with, and not on Community is it is lovely it is brilliant I love this model. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It is fairly straightforward, if you have ever done any work with communities, but for people who have never ever worked with communities you're going to look at this anatomy like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): super easy I don't understand what the problem is, but it has worked with these you're going to look at those and go. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): yeah I love that they may boil this down to nine steps that could take nine years or you know. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): People might think that they're nine days worth of steps, and when I teach it to my students, I like this seems really easy and i'm like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You would think, but each of these steps is going to be forward backwards sideways, it is not necessarily linear, even though it is written as a linear model because. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Working with people is time consuming, and it is about that trust and relationship building but it's also about knowing that there are going to be times when somebody in the group gets really mad and leads it's going to be times when you have to do, conflict resolution. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): there's this really famous model of groups that says groups form than they storm than the norm, then they perform. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And then, sometimes they have to reform um because they storm a lot and sometimes you're just in a period where like Okay, the group is storming. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): we're just in a period of storming, how do we get out of the period of storming and get back to normal or back to performing and sometimes you can and sometimes you can't and you have to. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Like dissolve the group and restart a new group. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It can be really hard sometimes you have to be really thought well all the time, so you have to be really thoughtful of who the thought leaders are. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Who the stakeholders are again maybe in a Community you think this one person is 90 years old, and they cannot be that. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You know, influential and if you don't get their approval and blessing you're not going to go any further you're not going to get anywhere with that Community right or maybe you think. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Well, this person seems like the most traveled person in this group I don't have to work with them at all, but if you're not getting their approval, no one else's moving forward. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Groups have stakeholders and they're not always apparent they're not always who you think they are but usually that's who you have to get involved and invested in order to move forward. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): doesn't mean that you have to do everything that they say, but you have to figure out how to listen, both like Dr tiffany said to what is said and what is not sad. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I feel like this is a hashtag new your Community a moment like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I mean that's what I really after listening to you that's really what I feel like i'm hearing is you need to know your community and what the process that you use for one may not necessarily be applicable for another. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You know in some maybe in a black or brown group it's an elder maybe it's not an elder you know I mean and again i'm just using my own frame of reference here um. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: wow. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: What if you belong to the Community, that you are doing research on. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So this is this is, I think the hardest. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): thing and seemingly it's the easiest place to come from, because you already know their community, you know what works, you know what doesn't work but because you're part of it you're also going to be part of those politics, and so it can be really, really challenging. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So as a queer person when I have done research on queer communities, I often will first say that to the Community is hi i'm lizzie she her. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): These are my identity is, and I do that as a way of situated myself right of positioning myself and saying. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): hey this is, who I am right sometimes i'll go into communities and say I grew up in a small town and people immediately oh okay you're one of us. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Right and there are some of those identities that we only pull on when we're going into a certain space sometimes. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): We don't put those on right, but even when you put those on you go into that Community and then you say. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I know nothing about this topic, you have to tell yourself that you don't say it out loud, but you tell your brain that and you put on that question that you asked how do I, how can I, help the other one that I pull out a lot is something I learned. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): way back when. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): From this is going to be a weird example. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But it comes from campion recreational campaign and there's this person who has written a lot in that field called Michael brand wine and he does this lesson. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): That he teaches staff who are working with young people tell me more tm squared tell me more and every time a young person tells you something you know tell me more. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Tell me more because, if I ask you a question like where do babies come from and you're like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): This is like a six year old at a summer camp like I don't know if i'm allowed to tell them this What if their parents get really mad and stop sending them to this camp like I don't know and if you ask them. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): what you mean by that they're gonna be like oh I just saw baby bird and i'm curious about where it came from, and yet oh this isn't the question that I thought it was right. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And so suddenly it's an easier question to answer and you're not really scared about it, and so, but the same principle applies when you're working with communities that instead of being like oh okay i'm queer I understand this community that i'm going into you say. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Oh. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Okay, so there's some infighting tell me more about what that's like and in your head you're probably like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): yeah I know who's fighting with WHO, and I know all of these dynamics and politics and I bet it's the ultra Femmes fighting with this group or I bet it's this group fighting with that group i'm not hating on the offense. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But it's all sorts of different things right and it's like I know what these politics are like but you get into that space and you go oh actually in this specific Community that i'm doing work on. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): These aren't the issues that play or maybe they still are the issues at play, but just like when you're doing your qualitative research. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You want to know how that group is constructing their knowledge, so when you're working with communities, you say how are you constructing this knowledge, how are you understanding these dynamics at play. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: that's your lizzie I just appreciate you on. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: All of this um you know it's kind of funny as you were talking I kept thinking to myself, you know we're talking about politics, in a sense, you know and um anytime you work with communities, I mean you have to know more about that Community I remember. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I was reading a becoming and Michelle Obama when she would. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: At the beginning of President obama's. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: When he was running for office, and she would have to introduce herself, and it was something that she didn't really it wasn't something she was accustomed to doing and in the text and i'm you know just paraphrasing she talks about how. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: She needed to she was she was going into a Community and she say yes i'm Michelle Obama, and this is where i'm from and and kind of aligned herself. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: With that Community and say, yes, this is, you know I understand what it's like to grow to grow up with hard working parents, and this is what my dad did, and this is what my mother, you know was doing in our Community, so it was always really interesting. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: How, you were showing you were just saying like when you go into a Community hey my name is lizzie and I go by, she her and. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You know i'm queer I mean I hear that, because it shows a human side of you, I think, as researchers, we don't show that human side of ourselves so just thank you so much for sharing and sharing is caring. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: But. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: But thank you so much, I mean you've gotten it all right, you know so just thank you do you have any other advice. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): um I think my final thoughts are even though I told you about a lot of the challenges with this type of work and I gave you some suggestions for workarounds I will say that it is some of the best kind of work i've ever done and it is well worth. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): The time it is well worth the money it is well worth the effort. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Because when it works well, you don't have to wonder is this going to be useful, is anyone going to read this because you already know, the. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Community that is most impacted is doing that work with you so other ways that i've done work arounds with this is i've done like focus groups or interviews with a couple of key stakeholders or i've done. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Work like interviewed a couple organizations before have them look at. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Data instruments and say like what do you think about this, what would you change what other questions would you like to know. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And then i've sent them that research back once it's done and that's the real key for me listening and follow through there's always ways, you can do versions of this, even if you can't do the full thing. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And don't hesitate to ask us questions or follow up later and the last thing I want to know is the Green and cruder book was published in 2004 I said 1999 before I don't know where I got that number from is actually. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): i'm so sorry for getting that that date wrong we'll have the full reference in the show notes. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: well. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Thank you, everybody, thank you, Dr lizzie for. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: dropping some knowledge i've got I you know I zipped up my backpack or i'm going to put everything away for a moment and i'm going to reflect. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Thank you for the journey today and, again, thank you listeners for joining us today on another episode of coloring outside the memos I am Dr tiffany i'm here with. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Dr lizzie. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: y'all take care of yourselves and have a great one. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): cheers cheers.