Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And welcome back our friends to our podcast coloring outside the memos. I am Dr. Tiffany, with Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Dr. Lizzie, and we are so excited to have you here with us today. We are talking about ethics. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Dr. Lizzie. I'm turning it over to you, and we've i'm ready. I'm ready to talk about this. I've got my Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: pencil and notebook and backpack and water bottle, because I I think we're going to need to be hydrated for this particular conversation. We are. I have my big mug a T. I'm all settled in with my cozy sweater on. So we're getting both sides of the coin here. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Well, listeners Welcome back. Thank you for their listening to us still. where I want to start with. This conversation is kind of to give you all a positionality statement on how we come to ethics and research ethics is Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): something I've thought of spent a lot of my life thinking about. When I was in college. I took a philosophy class, and I Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): hated it. I hated it so much Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it's so funny to think about that now, because I talk about ethics all of the time, but in undergrad I was like this is ridiculous class, and i'm supposed to argue with the Professor, and I don't want to be arguing in class. But then I would get really mad, and I would argue, and at the end of the semester is like, I'm going to fail this class, because, I argued all the time, and the Professor is like you were fantastic, and I was like how I yelled at you in class. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Of course you were fantastic now. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): of course. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): stressed me out so much. You just don't even know younger. Lizzie was not ready for that, anyway. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Ethics in research, I think, is something Normally, when I talk about this in the classroom, students are like, oh, this is such a boring topic, and i'm like no guys, it's really interesting. We have to talk about why we do things the way we do, and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): let's talk about Tuskegee and let's talk about Milgram, and let's talk about. You know some of these really unethical things that we're done in the name of research? And have we changed it? Have we not changed it. What has happened since then, and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): we'll talk about birth control trials in Puerto Rico, and we'll talk about various other things that are still ongoing. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like Andrew Wakefield and vaccines, and we'll talk about furious, various things with ethics. And, as I think, about ethics and research, As I was preparing for this episode. I was thinking about all of those things, and I was thinking about the hours I've spent thinking about how to Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): conduct myself. Ethically. Professionally. I've thought about the trainings I've done on professional ethics and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): trying to understand that and furious points in my career for more than a decade. I've been doing different kinds of training on that? And I thought, how in the world are we going to talk about this in this podcast? And what can I say, because this is a public record kind of thing, and what can I not say? And how do I want to talk about this? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And it's come down to the fact that there are going to be some things we talk about very openly, and some things we say. You know what we're not going to really Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: go fully into that because of where we are right now. Not because we want to hide things from you all listeners, but because we want to be really thoughtful, and how we're moving forward. So that's how I come to this, Dr. Tiffany. How do you come to this? I I love how you say that I think the other part to it is You are saying how we come to it. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: how we're coming to ethics. Talking about this topic right now is that we are also both very Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: we're young emerging scholars Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and and and we're kind of new in our own careers. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And you know Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: we not that we are fearless. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: but we also need to be mindful. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: We're being mindful of our own careers as we're moving forward. And so I just love how you're saying like this is, you know, doing this? Podcast is a part of a public record. It it really is. People have come back Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: to us and said, hey, I listen to your podcast, and you were talking about da da da, da, and we're like Yup, we we did Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and which is wonderful and great, because now we know that people are actually listening. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: The other part to it, though, is that people are actually listening double-edged sword. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: now if I could only get people to respond on Twitter that'd be great Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): mystery mystery right Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: but I mean so it's just it's so we're we're. We're also very new in our own fields. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And as as emerging scholars. And so we're just being mindful. And so I just want to reiterate that. So? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: But yeah, thank you so much, Dr. Lizzie, for stating our positionality. in this, and how we we are approaching this particular topic. So Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): yeah, you're welcome and thank you for adding on. That was really good. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So when you think about ethics and research, what are some of Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): the pieces that come to the top of your mind for how we need to be ethical in conducting research, Dr. Tiffany. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So, Dr. Lizzie, what I think about when Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I, when it comes to Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: behaving ethically. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: is is this. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: How does this impact Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: me as an individual? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: How does it impact the community that i'm working with? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Am I keeping in mind the Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: what I wrote down in the Irb? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Am I keeping in mind what I have told? If it's my funders. I I've only come across this once but once or twice. But is it the funders that you know? Am I keeping that in mind? So there are a couple of key players that are that are that are there, and and these are things i'm sure we're going to be talking about today. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: which I am very, very grateful for. So these are the things that I kind of think about. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: when I think about ethics and research. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: But most importantly, I would say it's it's more than just about me. It's it's it's about the community that i'm working with? Am I? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Am I taking from the community? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Or am I working with the community, or my giving to the community? You know I mean I i'm not trying to be Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: a Savior by any means, and I think that's something that's really really important, because you and I have talked about particularly on this podcast about what it means to be working with communities and how we're. We are not saviors, you know. We're working with communities. in our next Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: book review, we're going to be talking about this and talking about ethnographies, and you know as decolonizing ethnography. from an anthropological perspective. but that getting more into that later. But Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: i'm so excited. Yeah, and it covers ethics. It, You know very it. It does discuss ethics. So I mean, that's this is something that I think about. It's something that I think about constantly. particularly in our in our work, you know. So yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): yeah, thank you for that. we've definitely touched on ethics and a lot of our episodes already are absolutely right, and we're gonna keep talking about it listeners, because this is not a one episode thing. This is a constant ongoing part of research for us. So I think we' to start this conversation Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): was differentiating personal versus professional ethics. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So when I say that a lot of times people give me the what in the world are you even saying face? You all know that face people. Give me that face, and I like, I don't know what you're talking about. If it's in class. My students are like Dr. B. You are full of mountain sentence, and i'm like, okay, let's break that down. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So the classic example I give that most people can be on board with is back in the day Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): when I used to get some some ethics to folks, I would say, okay, imagine you have a 13 year old daughter, and you, She comes to you and says, I want to be on birth Control. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Your personal ethics might say, No, you're 13. You're not having sex right now, absolutely not, but in a professional setting. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): If you have a 13 year old patient and they come to you for birth control. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): That cannot be your response, because that is on ethical professionally, and so you might have a difference between personal and professional ethics. Therefore Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): now I think that's a pretty easy example to bite into. But we also have these with research. Right? we might not go up to somebody like I wouldn't go up to a random stranger on the street and be like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Have you ever had Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Have you ever choked someone during sex? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So we just ask a random stranger on the street? But it is a question I would ask somebody in research. I hope not. I hope nobody is asking that question randomly, and just going up to people saying, hey. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: is this what you do during sex like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): right? But maybe is a question you would ask in research. So, personally and professionally right. We know that we wear different hats, and we all already know that right? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): but how do you deal with the ethics of when you can ask that, and how you can ask that, and what you do with that information, and how you keep people safe. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And so most of the researchers generally know and understand this principle. But most of us Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): think about this in terms of Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I want to act Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): ethically, and I'm going to make good decisions. But you get to this fork and the road decision. And you're like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I don't know this doesn't seem like that pick of a thing, and you make your decision, and then another one comes up and you make that decision. And all of a sudden you're down a road that you didn't expect to be down, and this happens pretty easy and pretty quickly. For instance. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): you get data results in, and you see a bunch of people that are right on the State line, and you're only doing it within your state, and you're like I don't know we'll just let them in. We're short on numbers, and it's probably the same, anyway, because they're right on the edge. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And then you know you're looking at your data again later, and you're like, oh, a bunch of these are the same IP addresses. Well, you know that probably doesn't matter actually. And Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it's not that much of a leap to not hold hard and fast on whatever your preset rules were for that to Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): doing some other kind of data manipulation that doesn't seem like that pick of a deal in the time, but maybe actually is. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And so it can be really easy to throw stones and be like. Oh, why would people be on ethical and research? But in reality there are a lot of times Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): that people make those really small decisions that they don't think are really small, but are actually really big. So how do you Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): manage those kinds of situations? Do you have any thoughts or advice or suggestions, or Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: very carefully. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I mean, you know I Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: it's it's just. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I think. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: what we were talking about before Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the before we started. The episode was Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: being a good person. And what does it mean to be a good person? And being a good person, ethically like, what does that really entail. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: it's Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I personally Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: in your in my mind I don't see it as a hard thing, but at the same breath we all have different, as you were saying Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: before the episode started. Like, we all have different personalities, and we all have different perspective and perspectives and ideals. To what good. I'm doing. My air quotes what good really means. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and so and what ethical really means. And so Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I do like your Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: your example of Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: who you know the decision you're making Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: as a professional Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: can be different than your decision that you make Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: personally. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Now, whether or not that the right, the decision, the right decision. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: comes up Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: in your research. I think you have to think it through like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Are you doing this, or whatever the decision is? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Are you doing it Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: with a clear mind and with a good conscious Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I mean that's what goes through my mind. And again, as we said to everybody at the beginning. This is going to be a little bit of a different podcast, because or a different episode. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Because Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: talking about ethics is, it's not an easy. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: This is not an easy topic. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): No, no, it's not an easy topic, and it's a really murky one. And well, I think we're both extremely Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): thoughtful and conduct our research with the utmost ethics Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): There are questions in every research study, and there are questions of how do we handle this situation that no one could have seen coming. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And what do we do with this? And I think that's part of where your team comes in. It's part of where your mentors come in. It's part of Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): when you talk to somebody else and say, okay, i'm not sure how to handle this one, or you call up your irp. And you say, okay, here's this weird thing that happened, and I don't know what to do about it. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the example you used earlier. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: before we started again. I'm going back to before we talk so much. If you all haven't figured out, we talk so much before we start these episodes. and then also before before those is, you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: when you write your irb, and then you're writing up your transcript. You remember what you were saying before Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: about the ums and the likes. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, yeah. So is it data manipulation? If you are cut? If somebody you're interviewing a participant in a qualitative, traditional, qualitative study. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You're looking at the transcript, and their statement is I really like when I am touched a like like a certain kind of way during like, you know, sexual well, you know, like physical activity with like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like, you know, like my partner like you know, in certain like areas. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and we have to remind people like what you do and what you type of research you do. Let me remind people that right? Sorry all I do a lot of sexual health research. So my examples tend to be in sexual health realm. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): if that is your statement. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): most of those likes and Ohms are completely unnecessary, right? They do not add or detract from that statement. But there are a couple that actually do change the meaning of that Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): right? And so how do you decide? Can I cut these out? Or is that Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): so cluttering the transcript that it makes my participant sounds like they're really unintelligent, or does it Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): add to the stigma? If I put this in, or does it count as data manipulation. If I take this out, or how do. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): when do you clean those up, and when do you not? And how do you decide what is the right thing to do with Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): editing and like not editing, but cleaning data or not cleaning data. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: See, this is where I get Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: really Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: on edge. When people. You know those there's like a free program out in the universe. I won't name it Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: where you can Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: send your audio file. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and it'll give you. It'll pop out Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the transcript Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I won't say what the name of it is Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: my problem. There are a lot of them. There's a lot of them. There's a lot of them, but Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the problem with it Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: number one. You have already more than likely you have told Irb that you will transcribe, or you will send it Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: to get you. You will pay, or whatever to have it transcribed. But the thing is that that audio file you don't know, especially the free ones. You don't know where that audio file is going. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So that's Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: always been My! I always cringe Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: when people are like. Oh, yeah, I sent it on this free one. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and i'm like oh. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: oh! But do you know where the audio went? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You know Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And then on top of it, like the ethical part that I the you know you did, you say Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: as the researcher? I'm like going? I'm like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: pounding my hand right now. Did you say as a researcher that you would transcribe. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: or that you would pay to have somebody Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: transcribe. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You know the the interview, so that that's an example of Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: ethics. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It is. It is in being really clear in what you're reporting in your write ups of your research, and what data you're saving, and how much you've de identified it before it goes anywhere else? And Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): is it encrypted? Is it saved? How is it saved? What are all of those digital questions that we all have to grapple with at this point, right? And are you using Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): a Qda or in case you don't know listeners, a qualitative data. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And now Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): analysis program program or software. Software. Yeah. so the Qdas are phenomenal. But if you, if they're stored in the cloud, is the cloud secure, is it encrypted? If they're stored on your hard drive. Is that secure? Is it encrypted if you have to save it and send it to somebody? Are you sending it through email? That's not secure. No email is secure. So how are you keeping it secure? Are you using box or using dropbox? Are you using Google drive? Are you using what? And Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: some of those are varying continuums of levels of security, right? And some schools will not let you like. That's right. I will not let you use a certain I will not name names certain program Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: because they're like. No, we provide an encrypted service. So you need to state that you're using our encrypted service. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So it's just something to be very, very mindful of. I'm just thinking like ethic. Gosh! You know, Before we started this episode we were both struggling. Dr. Lizzie. We were struggling. We were like, how are we gonna do this? I'm like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): well, but that's kind of the problem, right? Because it Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it's like a rabbit hole of things we can get into and talk about with this topic. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But I also think with ethics, or maybe it's an ethics whole. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: that Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): you're welcome. I just lost you completely into laughter. So Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): we Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): we have to also think about with Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): ethics, not just because I feel like all of these things were pulling up. And all of these things that I have on my notes for this episode Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): are these things that researchers tend to complain about like of Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Oh, my gosh! I have to do this thing, or oh, it's taking longer, because I have to do this, or I have to, you know. Figure out this, or I have to jump through the hoops of the Irb or the grant, or the this, or the that, or the school programmer all of these different things because we're so used to like trying to get things out quickly, because we have all of these quote unquote productivity challenges, and so on and so forth. And these things can really slow you down. And they're really time consuming, and they're really hard at. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Theical questions sometimes are lost in the middle of that because of you have to do it, or sometimes you think okay? Well, I checked all of the boxes for the irb. I checked all of the boxes for the university, so i'm free and clear. I can do what I want now. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But the problem is, there are always loopholes. In the middle of those are things that Aren't fully covered by any of those or murky areas in the middle. And so how do you find the ethics in the middle of that. And I think that's really Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): one of those areas that goes back to this idea of personal versus professional ethics. It goes back to what is your own kind of like honor, code, or how do you want to stop and pause your idea, Dr. Tiffany, earlier of Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: sorry I was doing my honor Code, my Girl Scouts my Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: on my honor. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): love it! I thought you were counting down for some other reason. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So your idea earlier Dr. To me, of clear-headed and like thoughtful, I think, is really really important. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But it Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I wonder Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): if if we're talking to somebody who's brand new to research, or somebody who has been doing it forever. And Isn't used to pausing and thinking anymore because some of these decisions are just automatic at this point. How do we stop and really think about some of these harder ethical questions that Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): we all have to deal with this researchers right of like. Are we recruiting fairly? Are we reporting Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and thoughtful ways? Are we using words that are going to hurt somebody? Or how do we stay up on all of those things right. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I just. I just want to be like, are we? Are we? And it may be producing is in the world. But are we causing harm, and I think Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: you know it's when you put those things in a perspective. It's like, oh, wow! Like I, Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I am causing pain because i'm doing this, or I'm doing that. I think the other part to this is going back to the number. One thing, which is. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: what is your research question. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And how is your research question? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: How? How are the questions you're going to ask that come out of your research question Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: going to impact your community. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I think that's that's something. You know it always. All of this goes back, always goes back Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: to the research question. It always goes back to that Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it it does. But even the research question, is it an ethical question to even be asking? It is, you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: you know, like when I ask you to ask yourself, is this a question that you would want to ask your mama? No. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I mean in my research area I don't want to ask. I mean, yeah, I i'm not really sure. I I I mean it. Yeah, I mean, I just Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: maybe like somebody that you care about deeply. Let me rephrase this like. Is this a question that you wouldn't want to ask somebody that you Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: respect Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and care about? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: If it's not a question that you don't respect the person Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I would rethink your question. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I'm just saying that's my own opinion. But and that's not. That's not a scientific response. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Well, and I think Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I think that having multiple people involved is really helpful, but it's only as helpful as those people are. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and some research teams really are like that, right, and some research teams will really sit down and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): iron out these hard ethical questions Of how do we ask about this thoughtfully? And I think about Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: What has been your role typically on the research team? When it came to ethics Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I you knew I was gonna. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I don't ask you a loaded question. I can tell you what my role has always been. Tell me. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So. I remember I was on this one research team and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the other people on the team. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: They were all yes, people. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and I was like, oh, no. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: what about people of color? What about this? What about that? That is, you know, and I just I I kept talking about marginalized populations, and they were like but, Tiffany, there there are none that are a part of, and I like. I'm not saying that they said that our number but there was like, we're not coming up with enough to make a statement of. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: because of the type of study that it was, and I was like. Well, then, we need to go out and go search. We need to go search for people. That's right. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: That's right. So I was that person that was like. Well, we need to keep pushing forward, and we need to Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: doing this, and so that has always been my role on research teams. Not on our current research team. It's a very different yeah. But yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): no. And I mean, i'm often that person, too, there has been, like my earlier research team experiences were a little bit more of sitting in the background, and occasionally being like, Wait, that doesn't sound right. Can we go back? Why are we doing this? so in varying ways? Yeah, i'm almost always that person, too. It's part of the reason we're friends, that yeah, I mean, I think when we think about that and ethics, I mean it's Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: more of excuse me. Just thinking about Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Wow, is is that group of people represented, you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and are they represented fairly? I mean, I Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: It Are their voices heard? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, well in. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But I think about this, too, when I think about some of the problematic research Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): that has been done has been done with the very best of intentions. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): if we think about. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But there is a difference between intentions and impact, correct right? And so like I want our readers to think or our readers our listeners. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It's fine it all good. We know who you are. We know who you are Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): to think about like, not just intent, but also that impact piece right because Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): one of Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): sometimes when i'm working with students on research projects, and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I'm helping them think through some of those things i'll say you to them. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): what is the absolute worst way. Somebody could interpret this. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): What you're writing, and they look at me, and they are like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): that is such a mean question. And i'm like, okay. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But really, though, think about it. And how could somebody who is absolutely anti to our like, what you're trying to produce here? Use this statement for harm, and then they look at it again, and they're like oh, and right. I you know. Honestly, I I don't think this Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: so. When I was writing my dissertation. It wasn't a Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: question of harm. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: It was a question of. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: because my field is leisure behavior. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: How is this related to leisure behavior? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And and I I think it was like trying to push. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: because I think that's what Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: people Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I think that's what hopefully Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: our colleagues will try to do Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: is to push us Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: into Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: thinking in a way that will Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: challenge the Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the current narrative. That's out there, so that our work is more Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: sound Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: on the flip side. When you get a question like that, it is very easy that that can be a turn off. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: you know it's like. Oh. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I don't believe you just asked me that question, you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): yeah, Well, and that's such a good point, because there Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): of like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): there are those ethical questions of the field has believed this for Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): the last 50 years, and my data says something else. What do I do with this? Do I publish it? Do I not do? Is it Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): unethical to not publish it? Is it unethical to publish? It? Is one study enough like, how do you know? And Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): ultimately I think Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): there's no right answer on these really hard questions. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): There's talking to people who know something about it who have some experience in it. There's Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): understanding who you are as a person. I like to think that i'm a person who's going to push back, and who's going to Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): stand up and say something when I see something right. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): but it's it's hard. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I think there is something that we're talking about. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Research and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: data collection. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and there was something that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: we were talking with Dr. Dw. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And we'd love her that to Deanna Williams, and we were specifically talking about member checking. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and what that really entails. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I think it's so important Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: to. I mean, it goes back to the ethics of when we're collecting that data of Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: okay. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I have communicated with Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the group of people Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I have just interacted with. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I am being transparent with the group of people I have just interacted with. And so, even even in if you. If folks have don't, don't remember that episode. You need to take a look or look a Listen, look! We are talking about looks and books and reading. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You need to listen to that, that that particular episode, because we definitely talk about member checking Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and and as a part of that whole data collection Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: process. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I don't know there was something that you just said it just kind of reminded me. Yeah, no, I love it. I love it so Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I think, with all of that listeners. I think we'll kind of stop our conversation here, because, or start to wrap up our conversation here because we could talk about this for days and years and hours, but I ultimately think Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): that we can't give you every answer on this. We can just tell you generally that Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): think about it deeply. Have conversations about it. Talk to other people about it. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Dr. Tiffany, do you have any wrap up or closing thoughts that you want to leave our listeners with. There was something i'm gonna just read what you wrote on this Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and you wrote. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Ethics is not simply in checking a laundry list of things to do. It runs deeper Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: according to the dictionary.com Ethics is defined as moral principles that govern a person's behavior or conducting of an activity. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and I just wanted to let you know like when seeing that there Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Essex is not a laundry list. It's not like chip, tick, tick, tick, you know I mean it's it's just not. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: you know, and I and I think people can hear that. You know we are even struggling and trying to. We're trying to be as transparent with you as possible, but also just being like, Listen, Just Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: be be more of a good person like Leave Leave the scene better than how you found it. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And I think that's absolutely right. And I love that. I love that you like picked up on that and ran with it because it's true. It's not the laundry list. One of the things I want to leave you all with dear listeners is a quote that I heard at a conference. I was at last fall, which was the Society for the Scientific Study of Sexuality, or more commonly known as quadas. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Dr. Madeline Sutton, who is a black woman, very prestigious in her field in the field of sexual health research, said: Whatever table you get a seat at. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): use it to advocate for those who are not at the table. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Whatever table you get a seat at, use it to advocate for those who are not at the table, Dr. Madeleine Sutton, and I think that that is so critical for how I think about ethics. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): How are you using your seat at the research table to advocate for those who are not there. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): How are you using it to add to the conversation, or how are you using it to continue the same conversation that we've been having for the last 300 years on who should be at the table, and who shouldn't be at the table? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Oh, back to Lizzie. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: That was deep. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, how is deep? Hmm. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Listeners. Thank you so much, Dr. Lizzie. Thank you, Dr. Tiffany. Oh, appreciate you appreciate you! Until next time Listeners follow us on social, so definitely. Follow us. thank you so much for the reminder. Follow us on social Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: at C. Otm. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Pod. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: That should be correct. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Check it out on our show notes. It'll be in the check. It out on the show notes definitely, email us. Send us some a message on Twitter. Thank you so much and for everybody. We look forward to you listening to us next time. Until then, Cheers, cheers.