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hi everyone and welcome back to another episode of coloring outside the memos, this is Dr tiffany. And Dr Lizzie. And we're just so excited to have you here today, our guest that we have coming from our traveling we're gonna say traveling studio right now today we are recording in Provincetown. we're so excited you all it is. I know you're not listening to it at Pride, but maybe you are, but here we are at Pride weekend in P-Town. Woohoo! So, we are just so excited because today, again, it's Pride. I'm going to say, three queer researchers. I mean, it's just a beautiful thing. It's just so beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. So our guest today. Interviewing the interviewer. We're so excited. Interviewing the interviewer, Dr. Deanna Williams, MPH, PhD, she, her, hers is an LGBTQ plus health and sexual and reproductive health researcher at the, oh, y'all ready? Listen to this, at the MultiCare Institute for Research and Innovation. That's just too many words. O-M-G, this is one of our favorite humans. We just want her to like, y'all, when you hear about her today, you're gonna want her to come back, we're gonna have her come back. But her research calls attention to systemic oppression and promotes health and well being of communities that are historically underserved. Dr. Williams's specific research interests include health equity, racial justice and healing, please heal these waters, queel queer liberation. Thank you. Diversity and inclusion within public health. and the health and wellbeing needs, experiences, and strengths of LGBTQ plus communities of color. Drop mic. Oh, seriously, how is she doing all of this and still being one of the most amazing people alive? I don't know. Let's bring her in. Without further ado, we have the one, the only Dr. Deanna Williams. Whoop, whoop. Thank you so much for having me. This is by far the best introduction I've ever had anywhere. So thank you. And it's such a joy to be here with two of my favorite people traveling, getting to have this experience together. I can't wait. So excited. We are so happy to have you here. So let's start us off. Tell us what does qualitative research mean to you? So I love qualitative research because it centers stories. And when I think about the voices and the perspectives of the communities that I serve with my research, which is typically folks who are underrepresented, right? Black, indigenous, people of color, folks who are from the LGBTQ plus community, our voices are missing from not only research, from policy. from the ways that we're making decisions within our world. So I get to take these stories and not only give them visibility, but I also get to call attention to the unique lived experiences and strengths and areas of thriving and persistence and resistance that these communities have, which is just an absolute honor to do. So for me, qualitative research is about sharing meaningful stories. Thank you so much. You know, we have talked about sharing stories and the importance of who controls the narrative throughout our episodes. I mean, I'm looking over to my right at Dr. Lizzie. I know y'all can't see me, just feel the energy, the swiftness as I move my head looking toward Dr. Lizzie. It's so fun to be recorded in the same room. It is, it is. I definitely feel like we're live with our studio audience. And, and, you know, one of our questions, you know, we talk about the joy, the joy of the research. So share with us, Dr. DW, share with us why you enjoy qualitative research so much. For me, I think it's really about the opportunity to connect with people, to build community, and also to have those experiences where folks share with you how meaningful your work is to them, and the joy that it brought them and that ultimately brings me joy and I think each of us have had those experiences where after an interview or after a focus group, a participant has said, you made me feel seen, you made me feel heard. It's really an opportunity for us to, again, connect with participants. And I think it's so meaningful to know the impact that listening, power sharing, to know the impact of the techniques that we're doing and to see, again, why these stories need to be out in the world. Because so often it's the communities whose voices are silenced or ignored. underrepresented and visible time and time again. And just the act of bringing these narratives forward is radical and powerful in itself and so important for healing and for justice within this space. So for me, that is one of the things that I love the most about doing this work in an area of Real joy for me is hearing participants tell me that this was meaningful or I love this experience. This was such a great interview. That makes it all the more worth it for me. Oh, I love that so much. And I feel such a strong connection to that. And we've talked about this so many times before, but for our listeners who haven't necessarily heard this or who have been afraid to do work with the populations that they really want to work with because they've been told no by their mentors by their dissertation committees by their advisors. I just want you listeners to hear from the wisdom in this room and on this podcast. You can do this and you are going to not only change your own life, but also the lives of your participants. Can you tell us a little Dr. Deanna about how you were first introduced to qualitative research? Yeah, that's such a fun question. So when I first started the doctorate program and you know, thought about the type of research that I wanted to do and the type of classes that I wanted to take. I had no clue, and I signed up for a qualitative methodology class, and I thought, this sounds interesting. Let's see where this takes me. And I remember having the opportunity to do a final project on someone that meant a lot to me and help shape my experiences as a professional person, but also personal experiences. And I did it on a mentor that I had within my undergraduate program. She was someone that meant the world to me. Um, she was my mentor when I was interning at the women's center and really kind of. Indoctrinated me if you will, into this space of like queerness and just bad-ass women and just being with a group of people who just got it. And I did my, my qualitative project on my experience knowing her. and our relationship with each other. And I remember sharing it with her and just her reaction of like tears and joy. And like what an honor it was to be a part of that experience. And I thought. like, wow, look at what this work can do. You know, having that experience of sharing with her, of being in that space with her, of doing that emotional work with her, and what an impactful experience that was. And I said, you know, as someone who's a queer black woman, I think of all the times that I haven't been listened to or when I walk in a room and I feel like people don't care about my story about my experiences and how with my research, I can flip that narrative and give people the space to reclaim what hasn't been given to them before. So for me, that was my first experience being introduced to qualitative research and I fell in love with it. here I am now, years and years later, you know, loving it, loving every moment of it. I still get just as excited every single time that we start a new study. I say we because we're doing a study together, which y'all might know about. You know, every time that newness of the anticipation, the excitement of interviewing people and of, you know, reinvesting that energy, there's nothing like it. And it really is magical. which sounds silly, but it's true. It's a magical experience. Thank you for saying that, Dr. DW, because we talk about reclaiming our voices a lot in this podcast and what that means by our and how we define that. It's just so, so important. You're giving me goosebumps. You're just giving me goosebumps. So. You've talked about how you were brought in to this world, this beautiful magical world of qualitative research. Do you mind taking the time to brag about some of your projects? Because there is a little bit of connection between what Dr. Lizzie does, what I do, whether it's with other women of color, whether it's with other queer women. there's some kind of connection. So just talk about your work. We wanna hear about what you're doing. What you're doing, girl, what you're doing? Oh, I'll tell you what I'm doing. So I'll start with saying that I do LGBTQ plus health research as I mentioned, and I specifically focus on bisexuality and bisexual health among... folks of color. And when I, the very first project, let me back up that I had the opportunity to lead, you know, independently when I was in my doctoral program was on the intersections of biracial and multiracial identities and bisexuality and looking at the lived experiences of that community, but also the implications again for health and well being. And I kind of came to that topic by, you know, looking at bisexual literature, and, you know, we know that people of color are underrepresented when it comes to bisexual research, but also, there is virtually nothing on folks who were biracial, multiracial. So I wanted to bring forth these stories and to... investigate these unique experiences. So I had the opportunity to lead a exploratory study. And I actually just my first authored publication just came out last week. Yes, in the archives of sexual behavior, which Dr. Lizzie is second author on that paper as well. Was a joy to work with her on that same. Yes. So good. So good. And that kind of brought me into this world at the intersections of those identities. And after I was done with that study and looking through my findings, I realized that most of my participants were in their 30s or in their 20s and that I didn't have the perspectives of folks who were older adults. So I dug into this a little bit more, you know, dug into aging literature and gerontological is nothing, which I think for people that are in this space probably isn't that surprising. It's unfortunate that that's not surprising, but when it comes to LGBTQ plus research, we know a lot about the middle in terms of age. We don't know a ton about young people and we don't know a ton about folks who are older adults. So I thought, okay, well, what if I were to do a study similar to this, but look at the experiences across the lifetime? of folks who are biracial and multiracial and bisexual, you know, who are 50 and older. And that's what I ended up digging into for my dissertation research, which I finished and defended in December. So proud of you. Thank you. It is a burden lifted y'all. I can say that for sure. So. So that was my journey of doing that work. I won't go too far into detail. Please read the publications or the papers are all out if you wanna check them out. But those are some of the past projects that I have done. Hold up, before you leave that, can you tell us where people can find your work? Yes, yes. So you can find my... published paper on the biracial, multiracial, and bisexual first study I did at the Archives of Sexual Behavior. And you can find my dissertation on ProQuest, which is really openly accessible to all. It is a long document, y'all. I'm planning to publish both of the papers separately, so it doesn't have to be 100 pages of reading. But you can feel free to skim the abstract there if you wanted to. Love it. We'll put those in the show notes for all you listeners out there so you can have access to that. We'll also give them your org IDs so that they can easily keep up with you. Thank you so much. All right, so Dr. Deanna, thank you so much for all of your great information about how you came in to qualitative research and your story through all of these deep projects that are so meaningful to I love hearing you talk about your work and how it's progressed and grown over the years and it's amazing to see that whole field of study continuing to grow with you. And I know there are a lot of other projects you've worked on in addition to these and every time I hear you talk, I just get so excited and I do the, I want to dance around in your brain because it works so wonderfully. So tell us a little bit about, I know one of the things you love to do in your qualitative work is to do member checking. So talk us through, give us a quick description of what that is and how you've used it. Yeah, so member checking essentially is a validation technique where in some way, shape or form, you're returning either the transcripts or the analyzed findings to participants, and you're finding out their perspectives, whether or not it resonates with them or not. You're basically clarifying confirming or disconfirming what you found, or what they've said to you previously. You know, it's so important to do this, this type of technique within this type of work because there's been a lot of scrutiny over whose voices are brought forward, and whether or not it is the researcher's voice or the researcher and the participants, making that meaning together. And also there's been a lot of scrutiny over, quote unquote, does someone own the data. and who has the right to decide what's included in the final findings. And, you know, a big component of feminist research is that we should always be ensuring that our findings are accessible to participants, that we're transparent about how we got to our findings and that participants understand that process, and also that we are working together in this co-creation of of meaning and that we're sharing the experience, we're sharing power together. And member checking allows us to kind of go through all those ethical steps to make sure that we are doing justice to our participants and that we're doing this process as well as we possibly can. So that's kind of just a brief overview of why it's important and what it is. Ooh, I love that so much. And it's so in line with so much of what we have talked about. Dr. Shiffani, I know you've done this before too. Do you want to add a little bit here on how you've used it? Something that we talk about a lot on this particular podcast is working with communities, not working for communities, not working by communities, but working with communities. One of the ways that I have done member checking in the past is when I am after my interview, I should say. I'll do my interview, I'll have the transcript, and I'll go through the transcript with my interviewee, with my participant. And as we're going through it, sometimes they'll say, ah, I don't like this, or I love this. And maybe there's additional questions that might come out of that conversation. But I just wanna make sure that this is, like whatever research I'm doing is participant-led. Dr. Lizzie, how have you done member checking in the past? Great question and thank you for adding all of that depth about your own experience with member checking. What I will say for my experience with member checking is actually pretty minimal for actual research. It's not something I was trained to do. It is not something I learned about in any of my classes. And so this feels like a really important piece of something that I have been picking up. um, by working with the two lovely humans on this podcast right now and learning about how important it is. And again, understanding how, as we've talked about so often on this podcast, we have all learned through a really colonized lens, our qualitative research and qualitative research is at its very essence, a decolonized type of research. And so it's so important to honor that. And so I'm so particularly delighted to be able to hear more and learn more from these two with you all. So with that, I think what I want to ask you next, Dr. Deanna, while you're here, is what pearls of wisdom do you have? What kind of challenges have cropped up for you before? What are some tips or tricks that you know about of like how member checking might be challenging for folks or what they can do about it? Yeah, thank you. That is such a great question and thank you for sharing that and for calling out the ways in which we're not given this type of information and what that means. Let me back up and say, pose a question why aren't academic institutions getting us this information. I'll just leave that question hanging. We talk about really challenging topics. We talk about trauma. We talk about loss and grief and real moments of pain and adversity that happens in life. So for participants, when you're engaging in member checking, you're essentially asking their permission to go through that experience again, effectively. So being very... critical and mindful of the emotional labor that it will take on participants part, not only to go there with you in the interview or in the focus group, but then to again, either see their words in writing and to have to engage with that or to again, you know, Talk about that experience by whether the analysis resonated and that can be really painful for people. So, doing the emotional labor with them is critical during that and using tools of feminism in terms of empathy and compassion and possible disclosure if appropriate to... to really let them know that you're there with them in that moment and you're invested with them in that moment. So that's certainly a challenge that I've had in the past. Another challenge is, especially when you're returning analyzed findings to participants, what if they don't agree, right? Which is, I think the concern I get from most people who don't do quality research is, what if you get participants findings and they say, this is not what I said, this isn't my story? I will say that hasn't happened to me, but I'll say two things. One, being that in qualitative research, we acknowledge multiple truths, multiple realities. There's multiple ways of understanding and experience. And absolutely, participants are experts in their lives. We are not. We are being graced with allowing them to let us into their world with them. But I will also say too that as researchers, we have a lens and an understanding, possibly a framework that we're using that participants may not be familiar with. And again, it's about being transparent in that process and having that conversation, that dialogue together of what framework was used, how was the data analyzed, how were those findings came to, and then having a discussion about again, do things need to be changed, things need to be altered, how can we come together in this process? And it's not easy. It's challenging. And I know folks that has happened too. I don't know if you've had any experiences like that, Dr. Tiffany and Monopin, but I see those two things as being kind of my little pieces of wisdom around navigating those challenges. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. One of the pieces I really wanna follow up on here, is a little bit of the conversation about the emotional labor piece. That is something that we have kind of danced around on the podcast, but we haven't dug into yet. So how do you manage yourself as you're digging into that trauma? I know you talked about helping participants manage it, but do you have any things you'd like to share with our listeners about how you handle digging into that trauma that is both on your participants, but also might bring up stuff for you yourself. Yeah, that is, you know, it's a journey. I'll say it that way. It's a it's a journey. And it's a process that I continue to learn how to do and learn how to do better. And, you know, there's been there's been multiple times where, especially when, when it's things that have to do with experiences that are so close to your heart, and the research that I do. often mirrors my identities. And you walk away from that interview feeling exhausted emotionally and feeling drained, feeling. sometimes even defeated in a way because you heard what participants went through and then you think about yourself and you're like, why does this keep happening? I don't know if I can say that. Okay. Why does this keep happening? And it's so frustrating. But for me, when I think about the emotional labor that I do for myself, help me cope, is again saying me doing this work is a middle finger. to the fact that these things are still happening. So me doing this work is a direct challenge and a fuck you to the systemic oppression that I experienced, that my participants experienced to this world of bureaucratic nature of academia. Like this is me saying. I'm breaking through that. And that helps me emotionally, cope and feel powerful in the work that I'm doing. And I think participants agree that it makes them feel powerful too. And knowing that they are co-constructing this radical rebuilding of what we would like the world to look like, what we want institutions to look like and how they actually will serve us. in an equitable and accessible and justice-oriented way. So that's it, but it's a process. And I'm not there yet, but that's what I would like it to look like. Let me say that. I'm pausing as you're talking because I think, and I don't want to speak for Dr. Lizzie when I say this, but I'm going to. When I say, you know, we are all in a company of being with other people who are breaking down the walls of what has been created within research. generally speaking, but even more specifically speaking, within qualitative research, definitely within our fields individually. So thank you. Thank you for being an this emerging scholar who is holding their middle finger up in the air and saying, let's break down this systemic oppression that we've experienced. not just through our own educational experiences, but also in doing the research. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And thank both of you. I mean, I, you know, y'all are the ones who are leading the podcast and probably don't get the things that you deserve, but I want to say thank you to both of you who to the audience are. mentors to me, incredible mentors who helped me get through the PhD program and who I just adore, not only as researchers, but just as human beings, just two of the best, kindest people that I know, that I just have an honor of being in this room and on this podcast with. So I want to call out my praises. Oh, we cannot thank you enough for being on this podcast. And I want to echo what Dr. Tiffany said. Yes, you can speak for me in this Dr. Tiffany, as in most things. Anytime you say that, I'm like, yeah, of course. I'm right there with you. But thank you. We have, we definitely have to, you're welcome. We can make us both better and stronger. And it is an honor to work with you as well. I think we could talk. sit here. Well, I know we could sit here on this podcast and talk about qualitative research for hours and days. But Dr. Tiffany, I think you have one last question. I do. Actually, I have two. So Dr. DW, here it goes. What do you wish you knew about the research process that you now know? So that's one. Okay. And we'll start there. Let's start there. Let's start there. because I think there are things that we all wish we knew, but nobody really tells us. It's kind of like doing a PhD program. Nobody really tells you how you're supposed to do that thing called a dissertation. So, right? Can I get a mm-mm? So having said that, what is something that you wish you knew as a qualitative researcher now, as an established researcher, that you wish you knew back then at the beginning? I love that question. That's a hard question, but I would say one of the many things I wish I knew was that, you know, there's this, I'll back up and say that even among some qualitative researchers, there is this pressure to try to fit qualitative research within a quantitative lens. And it's confusing as a new researcher to, you know, to not understand the way that our work is not accepted and the way that we're kind of taught and told we need to play this certain game to get our research published, to get people to respect it. We need to be able to quantify certain things, like should we put numbers of participants that said this in our paper, all these narratives trying to take qualitative research and fit it into something that it was never meant to be. And I wish that I would have known from the get that, A, I don't need to do that. B, this is another way again that knowledge is being colonized in a way to fit the dominant narrative and that's the quite opposite of what qualitative research should be. And it's frustrating that even within our own field and within our own space of the work that we do, we're told to play this game. So I think, you know, now I'm from this lens of, no, I'm not gonna do that. But I wish as a new researcher that I would have had kind of that strong voice telling me that, yeah, that you don't need to fit your research into this box and that what makes this research incredible and beautiful and amazing. is that it doesn't fit it. Thank you so much. As you were talking, I was thinking about a song, of course, because that's how I do things, right? I was thinking about a song, specifically Solange's Cranes in the Sky. And when there's a very tail end of the song, I'm thinking about that PhD process, I'm thinking about everything, and there's something... Sorry, I'm trying not to get baffled in my words right now. But Solange says, but it's like cranes in the sky. Sometimes I don't wanna feel those metal clouds. Yeah, it's like cranes in the sky. Sometimes I don't wanna feel those metal clouds. And she says it sings away, away. She says it multiple times. So as she's singing this, and singing through this process and singing through the challenges, going through the adversity, people don't tell us as qualitative researchers, as emerging scholars, the trauma that we could experience by listening to the voices that we need to hear. And we're trying to provide a space with our these communities. So, you took it there. So that drop that mic. Just thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Um, as we get ready to wrap up the last question, um, what's your favorite tool you like to take out into the field? I mean, So folks, this is going to be the question, a wrap up question for interviewing the interviewer on coloring outside the memos. So what is your favorite, your favorite, favorite tool. you like to bring with yourself out in the field? Okay, I'm going to give you an actual physical tool you can hold and then I'll give a mental tool. So anyone who knows me knows that I am obsessed with whiteboards. I have a whole room of them, whiteboards all over my office. So I like to have... which I do, I have like miniature sizes of whiteboards that I can take with me wherever I go or pull out at any time because I'm a visual person. So mapping ideas and kind of like drawing as I as I go helps me to make connections with in the data. So I love having that as like a tangible tool in the field. I would say the second piece is reflexivity. And I'm sure that y'all have obviously talked about this on the podcast before but it should be the foundation and the pinnacle of what we're doing as qualitative researchers. So whether that's a reflexivity journal or having reflexivity discussions to debrief with your team, essential to doing good trustworthy qualitative work. love that so much. And I think both are such important tools. Whether you're doing physical memos out in the field with that whiteboard, or you're doing them in your shared QDA space, those are so important in that reflexivity and really doing that memoing process, which is what we've named this after. And we haven't had a full episode on reflexivity, but it's coming, y'all. It is coming. So with that, thank you so much. You are an absolute gem. We love you so much. And we are so glad to have you on this podcast to be able to do work with you, to learn and grow from you and to be able to hold space with you. You are just such an important person. And I hope our listeners have soaked up all of your beautiful knowledge and are taking it to heart. Um, Dr. Tiffany, do you want to sign us off? Most definitely, just thank you so much, Dr. Deanna Williams. This has been a joy. I'm going to echo what Dr. Lizzie said. It's, if folks cannot feel the love that we have for Dr. ZW, definitely check her stuff out. We will be putting her information available to read in the show because we definitely believe in open access. I'm just saying FYI, that is not necessarily a plug saying open access. We were saying that we want people to be able to have access to everything that we provide. Just thank you. Solange did not pay for the lyrics for Crane in the Sky to be read out loud. I would just like to say that. So Solange, if you're reading or hearing this podcast, please don't come after us. We just love you. That's all I got to say about that. We just love you. We love you. So again, as we move forward into this world doing qualitative research, this is Dr. Tiffany and Dr. Lizzie. We are signing off for Coloring Outside the Memos. Thank you so much and take care and we will talk to you next time.